[ 1 ] John Lee ( 2003/5/17 下午 10:11:00 )

To CVT,

You forgot once you listed a verse from 18 Bible versions in some other discussion line in this discussion board.

To answer your question of why I baptised:

http://cool.ccim.org/htdocs/Ccool.nsf/0/583FD8A5CFBCD7CD85256ACE005B2363?OpenDocument
问66：圣礼是什么？
答：圣礼是圣洁的有形标志和印记，是神所指定的，以至借着圣礼，他可更完全地向我 们宣布并印证福音的应许：即因基督一次在十字架上所完成的牺牲，神出于白白的恩典， 使我们罪得赦免，承受永生（a）。


(a)　创世记17：11，罗马书4：11，申命记30：6，利未记6：25，希伯来书9：7-9，24，以西结书20：12，以赛亚书6：6-7，54：9
什么是圣礼？
信心也从圣礼得坚固。我们必须清楚了解什么是圣礼，否则对其作用就只能有模糊的了解。

圣礼有两重作用：

它们是有形的标志，将无形的东西描绘出来。例如，把水洒在一个孩子的头上是把基督的宝血和圣灵洗去罪有形地描绘出来。吃饼喝酒象征着一个人与基督相连，分享他的恩惠。

圣礼也是印记。印记是真实性的表征。当主将他的恩典赐给我们时，他要借着洗礼来向我们表明他的应许是真实可信的。洗礼是福音应许的印记。在圣餐上，吃饼喝酒是分享基督。事实上，我们就是借着信心吃喝基督的身体。这象征着一个基督徒在真理中与他紧密相连。
神的话语和圣礼的联系
从中我们看到，圣礼不是表现福音中所没有的新事。在圣礼中，神的话语各方面都得到展现。圣灵使用圣礼，让我们更清楚地理解神的话语，并使我们心里更深地确信神的话语是真实的。他用这种方法坚固我们的信心，因为这样的信心是置根于神赦免罪，赐永生的应许上。这反过来又给人更大的平安和蔚藉。

一个基督徒只有一个基础，让他相信自己是神的儿女，有一天将会进入天国，这基础就是基督在十字架上一次献上的牺牲。除此以外，别无根基。这是洗礼和圣餐所宣告的。

问67：那么，道与圣礼是为指引我们，相信耶稣基督在十字架上之牺牲，乃是我们得救的唯一基础吗（a）？
答：诚然如此；因为圣灵在福音里教导我们，又借圣礼向我们保证，我们得救全靠基督 在十字架上一次完成的牺牲。

(a)　罗马书6：3，加拉太书3：27
只靠基督
使徒保罗在《加拉太书》第六章14节里说：“但我断不以别的夸口，只夸我们主耶稣基督的十字架”。《要理问答》完全与这话一致。我们能得救，只因为基督在十字架上献上了他自己。人没有任何东西可以加上去的：善功，祈祷，苦难和眼泪都无足轻重。否则这就是一个失ฝ

[ 2 ] John Lee ( 2003/5/17 下午 11:28:00 )

To Pisgah

you wrote:
我不曉得John為什麼要堅持TJC跟其他的靈恩運動有關? 我們都已經說了又說,你還是認定你的看法是對的, 感覺上就好像強迫別人承認你所找來的家譜, 教義相同的部份,就是魏保羅抄襲而來, 教義不同的部份, 就是魏保羅杜撰的, 你知道嗎 ? TJC 從來不過聖誕節,你知道有那些教會不慶祝聖誕節嗎 ? John reply->You already brainwashed by TJC too long. There are thousands of churches do not celebrate Christmas. For example, churches following Watchman Nee’s teaching don’t celebrate Christmas. I don’t celebrate Christmas either, I use the day to invite friends to church to listen to the gospel. I use the day to meditate how gracious that God gave his only begotten son to us. The date (12/24) is not the correct day of Jesus’ birthday, most Christian know the fact.

很盼望John讀了之後, 能把個人對TJC的態度放一邊,讓問題的討論,能聚焦於聖經, 其實真耶穌教會如何起來並不重要, 重要的是我們對聖經的看法,有沒有可取或可議之處 ? 當天主教徒引用教皇的話, 回教徒引用回教教長所說的話,這樣的辯論是無法找出真理的. 某神學家所說的話, 自然會有其他的神學家去反對, 所以,在我看來, 他的title並不能增加他所說的話的正確性, 除非他完全依據聖經, 對於基督徒而言, 真理的唯一來源必須是聖經!
John reply->You are contradicting yourself now! Some doctrines of TJC were from “direct revelation” from God to Paul Wei!!!!

就算你想從系統神學的角度,先來檢驗解經的方法,又有何妨呢 ? 難道TJC真的經不起檢驗嗎 ?
John reply:
Very good! At least you know what’s the purpose I intended to do in the previous post. Yes, I listed a systematic approach many theologians used to build doctrines, to challenge the methodology TJC used. TJC selected few verses from Acts and used the“inductive” method to draw conclusions, then made it a dominate doctrine to suppress the main theme of the OT and NT where hundreds of verses support John 3:16 “whosoever believed in him shall not perish, but has eternal life”. Actually three kinds of mistakes TJC made: first, incorrectly interpretation of Acts 2; denied the “tongues” in Acts 2 as “languages” – a mistake came from insufficient training in Greek. Secondly, used inductive method to draw conclusion from a history book – Acts, to surpass the doctrine of salvation that clearly spelled out by Jesus and apostles in teaching and commands. This is a mistake of “methodology” . If any one in TJC ever took a graduate course in “ Introduction of theology methodology” could understand what I am saying here. The third mistake is the practice of verifying “Holy Spirit” by checking members’ “tongues”. There are 170 to 350 millions of so call “Christians” speaking in tongues now, there is no way for TJC to validate the “tongues” is real, the same as apostles’ “tongues”. Because apostles died 2000 years ago. If TJC wanted to use ‘special revelation” to gave Paul Wei or other founders of TJC the “validation of tongues from Holy Spirit”, then TJC made another mistake again: it accepted authority from sources outside “Bible” to support their doctrine. This approach is not acceptable in protestant church (only scriptures).The reason of so many people trapped by TJC’s doctrines was because TJC developed an interpretation system (logic) to support the selected verses they picked in favor of TJC’s doctrine, so even smart guy like CVT could not tell the mistakes in two years. However, if you use my systematic approach to examine TJC’s doctrines, you will find out what’s wrong very soon. As a matter of fact, Paul Wei did not know theology at all; all these methodology were developed by some leaders in TJC or copied from Apostolic Faith Mission or from Pentecostal churches (later); some were invented by TJC’s smart leaders like Elder Shieh Soon-Tao. Furthermore, the “spirit” of speaking in tongues in TJC is so strong that when some members receive it, he/she will become a die-hard TJC member. The person will use his/her experience to support TJC’s doctrine. The exotic experience in “speaking in ton

[ 3 ] John Lee ( 2003/5/18 上午 07:04:00 )

To知者知于

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Also, please tell me why TJC does not need “prophesies” to be included as an evidence of receiving Holy Spirit?
Acts 19:6 [hb5] 保羅按手在他們頭上、聖靈便降在他們身上．他們就說方言、又說預言

You just can't answer this question, right? Let me tell you why: It's easier to let people believe something can't be proved (tongues) than someting can be proved (prophesies), beacause nobody knows what 16 or more languages in Acts 2 (2000 years ago) sound like. However, you need to be 100% right if you say "prophesies". It's not too difficult to make simple-minded persons believe that "tongue voice" in TJC is "tongues" in Acts 2 by confusing them with some "Greek" and some selected verses.

[ 4 ] CVT ( 2003/5/18 上午 07:55:00 )

From your article, it seems as though you have separated the spiritual and physical events of sacrament.

It stated that a sacrament is a seal and physical symbolic act of the Lord's promise to reflect the Gospel. Where in the world did the Bible say water baptism or Holy Communion was a seal? I only recall that receiving the Holy Spirit is the seal. Where in the world did Christ ever say the word "symbol" in the physical form but actually regarded all as true and not symbolic?

This is your definition of sacrament. Let me tell you our definition of sacrament:
1) Christ has done it himself.
2) Christ tells us to do it.
3) It is something directly related to salvation.

To us, sacrament is not a symbolic act to physically manifest the promise of Christ. It is spiritually working when we physically practise it, because God does not rush nor delay, but work at the right time. Only with work will faith be alive, or else it's dead. Putting it as a physical, symbolic manifestation is separating actual spiritual work from our physical practise. It's just like saying, "I love you", but never even giving the person a cheap bread when he is hungry. "I love you" is like the spiritual side. Giving the person a bread is just a symbol and not that important, because it's already spiritually done. That's what your definition of sacrament sounds like to me.

Only after the Israelites went through the Red Sea were they counted as "baptised" into Moses. Only when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples did they conclude they were baptised by the Holy Spirit. Only when Christ was nailed on the cross was water baptism counted available to us. Only when Joshua and his family reached the promised land were God's promise fulfilled.

If it were your view, the above would be:
The Israelites were already baptised into Moses. Walking through the Red Sea is nothing but a symbolic act. The downpouring of the Holy Spirit was already done, so the apostles' experience was not the true downpouring of the Holy Spirit. Christ didn't have to nail himself onto the cross. It has already been done spiritually. He did so to symbolically manifest it to us. As for Joshua, nah~, he entered the Promised Land a long time ago, except he did it to manifest the promise of God. The promise was fulfilled a long time ago.

Has the record of the Holy Scripture ever mentioned this type of attitude of God's work? As far as I can recall, God only considered it a fulfilled promise or done after it has actually been practised. Or else Christ didn't have to say "It is finished" (John 19:30; RSV) after he was nailed. Yes, only at that time were the blood of Christ made available for us. God did not put spiritually things ahead of time, but actually worked with the physical act at the right time. I cannot recall God thinking it's already done without work, and work was only symbolic.

Let me put it to a deeper perspective:
There are three parts that makes us. The body, the soul, and the spirit. The body was nothing except something shaped out of dust with soul (in the blood). This was as far as what God gave the animals, and the animals were made alive with these. To us, God gave us something more precious: spirit. It was only after God gave us spirit were we made alive.

See the connection now? Our body is dead without the spirit (James 2:26, also see Genesis 2:7). This is the connection between our physical body and spirit. Without any of the three, we're dead. Thus what we do physically will be accounted to our spirit and soul, that's why when we sin, we make ourselves spiritually dirty in front of God. What is physically done is therefore spiritually done also. God did not consider you a sinner until you stole something. Even if God knew this person was going to steal, God did not count this sin ahead of time, but o

[ 5 ] John Lee ( 2003/5/18 上午 08:04:00 )

To CVT,

TO CVT,

Now I want to give you a serious warning, since you may pass the point of no return soon if you get TJC’s spirit (speaking in tongue voice) in the near future. I have a qustion for you now. Why you have not got the “tongues” you have been seeking for two years? If you are a true believer, you should get it right away according to the following verses. I think the most possible reason is that the Holy Spirit in your heart rejected the different spirit in TJC when they placed hands on you. I guess you are a true believer because you have a deep love for the Scriptures, and I think you can’t deny that you have been touched by God’s Spirit and have his guidance already. But you have a deeper thirst for the filling of Holy Spirit. Please try the right way: read Bible, meditate Scriptures, pray, and spread Gospel, and you will be filled with his love. Whenever I meditate on God’s love, I can’t stop praising him and always filled with his presence. On the contrast, many TJC members do not enjoy reading Bible or listening to the sermons, what they want is the happy moment that they can practice speaking in tongues between and after sermons. Do you know the main purpose of Holy Spirit is to let believers remember Jesus’ words and also remind them of their sins, so they can come to him to get forgiveness by his blood and worship Him. The Holy Spirit is not for believers’ enjoyment that they can feel "great” in the practice of speaking in tongues. This is not spiritual; but just opposite.

3:1 [hb5] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
我只要問你們這一件、你們受了聖靈、是因行律法呢、是因聽信福音呢。
3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
你們既靠聖靈入門、如今還靠肉身成全麼．你們是這樣的無知麼。
3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
你們受苦如此之多、都是徒然的麼．難道果真是徒然的麼。
3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
那賜給你們聖靈、又在你們中間行異能的、是因你們行律法呢、是因你們聽信福音呢。
3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?


Have you ever doubted the spirit in the preachers and elders in TJC who placed their hand on you head for these two years? Did they all look like "filled with the Holy Spirit" with the manifestation of the Holy Spirit:

5:22 [hb5] 聖靈所結的果子、就是仁愛、喜樂、和平、忍耐、恩慈、良善、信實、
[kjv] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 [hb5] 溫柔、節制．這樣的事、沒有律法禁止。
[kjv] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Did you feel they were “saints” with a “pure, clean, joyful, love, holy” spirit? I don’t want to make any comment here, just open your eyes and look!!!!

[ 6 ] CVT ( 2003/5/18 下午 01:11:00 )

Do you know why Paul wrote this letter to Galatians? It's not because work is useless, but because the Galatians were living by law not by faith. Christ gave us faith to live by, not law. This was why Paul rebuked Galatians. But if you live by faith, so should your act be according to God's word. So please don't get confused with "justification by faith" with this. Faith without work is still not enough. With faith, we still have to obey the fundamental laws, but with faith as the base, not law. That's what Paul was trying to get through. You seem to have neglected our moral behaviour with just "faith".

As regards to the Holy Spirit, your article below again is short of biblical support. If you want to pick on believers, preachers, deacons etc. of our church, of course there are always faults to pick on. But if I do the same with Protestant church, even with just Presbyterian church, I will be able to pick lots of problems with you guys too. Even your pastor. Already have I heard of stories of a few pastors falling into eternal death.

As with the view of the Holy Spirit and why some believers aren't as good as they should be with the Holy Spirit, I'll type out an article when I find more time. It's the article I promised I will type out a while ago. It will take me a long time to organise.

[ 7 ] 知者知于 ( 2003/5/19 上午 01:49:00 )

To: John Lee,

你上次的問題, 個人不是已經回答了? 怎麼說"You just can't answer this question, right?"

〔聖靈有九種不同的特殊恩賜, 說方言(造就教會)與翻方言是特殊恩賜, 但是得到聖靈的說靈言, 卻是得到聖靈內住的証據, 不可混為一談,
聖經只有根據"會說靈言-glossa"來判斷得到聖靈, 並沒有用"會說方言(造就教會)"來判斷得到聖靈, 為何要添加聖經沒有的?〕

再解釋清楚一點:

說方言(造就教會) 就是 "說預言" (prophesies) 或 "作先知講道".

(林前14:1) 你們要追求愛、也要切慕屬靈的恩賜、其中更要羡慕的、是作先知講道。〔原文作是說豫言下同〕
(林前14:2) 那說方言的、原不是對人說、乃是對神說．因為沒有人聽出來．然而他在心靈裡、卻是講說各樣的奧秘。
(林前14:3) 但作先知講道的、是對人說、要造就、安慰、勸勉人。
(林前14:4) 說方言的、是造就自己．作先知講道的、乃是造就教會。

請看清楚, 中文和合本的"說方言", 應該翻譯作"說靈言" (speaks with a tongue, 或 speak in other language) 原文用英文表示為 "glossa".

希臘文可是你先貼出來用的,
你怎麼說我們教會: "incorrectly interpretation of Acts 2; denied the “tongues” in Acts 2 as “languages” – a mistake came from insufficient training in Greek. "錯誤的解釋(徒2); 否認"tongues"是"languages" - 因為沒有接受過充份的希臘文訓練所導致的錯誤"?

之前的貼文也問過你, 你也都答不出來, 為何五旬節時, 門徒得到聖靈說出"glossa"(tongue), 有些人聽成是"dialekto"(鄉談), 有些人聽不懂? 譏誚他們喝醉酒, 亂講話? 如果"glossa"(tongue)就是世界上的語言"language", 為何保羅會說"沒有人聽出來．然而他在心靈裡、卻是講說各樣的奧秘"?

所以你硬拗, 說(徒2)的 "glossa"(tongue) 一定是 世上的"language", 根本違反聖經, 受再高深的希臘文訓練也是枉然.

(徒2:16) 這正是先知約珥所說的．
(徒2:17) 『神說、在末後的日子、我要將我的靈澆灌凡有血氣的．你們的兒女要說豫言．你們的少年人要見異象．老年人要作異夢．
(徒2:18) 在那些日子、我要將我的靈澆灌我的僕人和使女、他們就要說豫言。

照你的邏輯, 是不是真教會也要用"見異像", "作異夢" 當作判斷是否得到聖靈的依據?

得到應許的聖靈, 是神在末世(新約時代就算是末世了), 應許要普遍的降下聖靈給祂的兒女的.

不像舊約新約聖經所記載的聖靈感動, 或聖靈降在祂的工人身上, 是神在"少數人"身上的工作.

得到應許的聖靈, 任何人都會說出"glossa"(tongue), 這不是世上的語言"language", 而是其他的,不懂的語言"other tongue"或"unknown tongue", 就是"靈言".

有些人當其他人得到聖靈說出靈言時, 他們也得到"翻靈言"的特殊恩賜, 所以才聽得懂, 才說他們"說方言、又說豫言"

這現象發生在:
(徒19:6) 保羅按手在他們頭上、聖靈便降在他們身上．他們就說方言、又說豫言。〔或作又講道〕
也發生在:
(徒10:44) 彼得還說這話的時候、聖靈降在一切聽道的人身上。
(徒10:45) 那些奉割禮和彼得同來的信徒、見聖靈的恩賜也澆在外邦人身上、就都希奇．
(徒10:46) 因聽見他們說方言、稱讚神為大。

在以下的經節, 就沒有記載"說預言".
(徒8:16) 因為聖靈還沒有降在他們一個人身上．他們只奉主耶穌的名受了洗。
(徒8:17) 於是使徒按手在他們頭上、他們就受了聖靈。

真教會是用:
會不會在禱告的時候, 口中說出靈言, 是"聽不懂的語言"或"其他的語言-不是這世上的語言"(unknown tongue, other tongue), 就是聖經所說的"glossa"(tongue), 來判斷是否得到聖靈.

若有說出靈言, 我們說他得到聖靈, 但是之後的言行舉止怪異, 我們會根據聖經來分辨他所得到的靈, 這種情況在我們教會很少發生.

得到聖靈, 說出靈言, 剛好他本人或其他同靈又得到"翻靈言"的恩賜, 馬上用我們聽得懂的話翻譯出來, 這就是"說預言"或"作先知講道", 因為是要"造就教會"的. 此時所說的靈言就不是對神說的. 這種現象在真教會初期很多, 現在比較少見. 可能其他外教會現在也有, 但說不定是否真是從神來的, 要從很多方面判斷.

"說預言"(prophesies)是聖靈九種特殊恩賜中的一種,
(林前12:8) 這人蒙聖靈賜他智慧的言語．那人也蒙這位聖靈賜他知識的

[ 8 ] John Lee ( 2003/5/19 上午 07:12:00 )

 To Pisgah

you wrote:

我不曉得John為什麼要堅持TJC跟其他的靈恩運動有關? 我們都已經說了又說,你還是認定你的看法是對的, 感覺上就好像強迫別人承認你所找來的家譜, 教義相同的部份,就是魏保羅抄襲而來, 教義不同的部份, 就是魏保羅杜撰的,

John reply
If most of TJC's doctrines were copied from this movement, you need to admit it. I will post some main doctrines of Apostolic Mission in 1907-1915 for you, you will see TJC only added “Sabbath” and “face down (for baptism)” on their doctrines.

you wrote:

除非他完全依據聖經, 對於基督徒而言, 真理的唯一來源必須是聖經!

John reply:

Your view is different from 知者知于 , because he thought the doctrines of TJC were from direct revelation of Holy Spirit. 但是最重要的是, 真神親自啟示要更正萬國所傳不合聖經的道理. 因此, 我們教會所宣示的十大基本信仰, 可能有些與某些教會相同(或相似), 這是因為聖經的真理只有一個. 很多外教會可能領悟了某些真理, 但像真耶穌教會, 經過聖靈親自啟示, 能夠傳得全備的, 到目前看來, 全世界只有我們教會一個!

John reply:
When a church builds doctrines from careful interpretation of Bible, it does not need “direct revelation” of Holy Spirit to tell which verses need to be interpreted to certain ways or need to be used as dominate doctrines. But the church needs to pray and to ask the guidance of Holy Spirit to let them know whether their interpretation of Bible verses are correct. Usually the process involves many Churches leaders and Bible scholars in a long period of time and needs to review the church history to learn lessons and study creeds from early churches. To build some doctrines in a “vacuum” environment without open discussion and help from Bible scholars will inevitably make big mistakes. I believed Paul Wei made this mistake in 1917. Protestant churches have been used “Bible only” approach for 500 years, and always rejects any organization claims it’s establishment and it’s doctrines come from direct revelation of Holy Spirit to emphasize the “authority”. This is why many Churches think TJC is a “cult” or “extreme” However, most TJC members do not understand this, and think they are bearing the cross for Jesus. For an example, recently Mr Wu bi-cheng posted dirty languages in this web site, and he claimed he got direct revelation from Holy Spirit. You can reject his claim right away, because you would not believe Holy Spirit would reveal the messages directly to him like that.吳必成 [男][其它]

主聖靈保惠師，也就是 主聖靈自己，2002年10月22號，彥谷與必成在祭壇中禱告，拿到 主聖靈的應許，從10月22日接到使命，到11月16日初步完成，歷時短短不到一個月的時間，能夠完成將所有經節找出，這不是吳必成或潘彥谷所能做到的，唯有 主聖靈自己，才能夠完成!~ 榮耀 神!!
But in 1917, Paul Wei used the same approach to claim the church he started was from direct revelation of Holy Spirit. Fortunately for more than 50 years in Taiwan’s TJC church history, leaders of TJC in Taiwan have been emphasizing Bible study; so, in general speaking you can still find “some” teachings are not much different from mainstream Protestant churches. 

[ 9 ] 知者知于 ( 2003/5/19 上午 07:37:00 )

To: John Lee,

個人所說的:

"...經過聖靈親自啟示, 能夠傳得全備的, 到目前看來, 全世界只有我們教會一個!"

不一定是指全部由聖靈"出聲指示", 聖靈可以感動某些長執, 由查考聖經中, 或由開會討論中, 聖靈帶領, 他們決定那個教義是與得救有絕對關係. 所以在這樣的定義下, 個人所說的"經過聖靈親自指示, 能夠傳得全備", 就包括了符合聖經所記, 兩者並沒有矛盾, 並不是指每一條都是聖靈說話指示.
聖靈是真理的聖靈, 祂帶領我們明白一切真理. 但若有人宣稱聖靈告訴他什麼, 但內容卻不符合聖經, 我們當然馬上就可分辨.

[ 10 ] John Lee ( 2003/5/19 上午 07:50:00 )

to 知者知于

you wrote:

個人從小在長老會, 在還沒有得到聖靈以前, 也是為主非常熱心, 在海德堡各教會到處奔走, 也是稱耶穌為主, 又接主耶穌到心中, 蒙主帶領, 恩典滿盈.

John reply:

I was baptized in a Presbyterian church, too. So you agreed that before you came to TJC, God accepted you as His sheep, and gave you lots of grace. You also prayed God and served him, so you knew the reason he listened to you was because you accepted him as savior and his blood washed away your sins. BUT YOU CONTRIDICT YOURSELF NOW, BECAUSE TJC BILIEVES WITHOUT SPEAKING IN TONGUES, YOU WERE NOT SAVED NOR HAD SALVATION. THERFORE, GOD COULD NOT LISTEN TO YOUR PRAYERS AND GUIDED YOU, BECAUSE YOU WERE STILL UNDER THE BONDAGE OF SIN,AND UNDER HIS CONDEMNATION!!!

但是個人得到聖靈那時, 被聖靈激動, 不由自主的從口中說出非常流利的靈言, 心中喜樂, 又為重回天父懷抱感動得淚流滿面, 那種喜極而泣, 在聖靈裡振動說靈言的非常體驗, 無法用言語完整的形容.

John reply,

Great experience, but you don’t need to give up the Apostle Creeds, and “Trinity of God” to embrace Paul Wei’s doctrines. Do you still believe in Apostle Creeds you recited every Sunday morning when you were a child? If the new spirit you received in TJC did not conflict with the old spirit guided you in Presbyterian church, and there was a possible that you were filled again by Holy Spirit; because the filling of Holy Spirit could be numerous times in a person life.

[ 11 ] 知者知于 ( 2003/5/19 上午 10:13:00 )

To: John Lee,

個人在大學時於長老會接受點水禮, 後又在德國仰面躺入河中受浸, 因當時相信"浸禮"才是對的, 等到以後接觸了真教會的道理, 再確認"低頭, 奉主耶穌聖名"才是更合乎聖經, 所以, 個人是覺得, 如果洗禮不合乎聖經, 洗再多次也是無效. 所以在接受正確的洗禮之前, 個人雖然為主非常熱心, 在海德堡各教會到處奔走, 也是稱耶穌為主, 又接主耶穌到心中, 蒙主帶領, 恩典滿盈, 但是老實說, 個人在服兵役前後犯了包括求算命符咒等大罪, 這些罪, 並沒有用主耶穌寶血洗淨. 只是感謝神, 在我還是罪人的時候, 主就這樣愛我, 一步一步的帶領.

你說: THERFORE, GOD COULD NOT LISTEN TO YOUR PRAYERS AND GUIDED YOU, BECAUSE YOU WERE STILL UNDER THE BONDAGE OF SIN,AND UNDER HIS CONDEMNATION!!! (所以神無法聽你的禱告及帶領你, 因為你還被罪惡捆綁, 被神定罪)

這是不對的, 如果這樣, 全世界都臥在惡者手下, 神如何救人? 沒有一個人可以得救!

當我們還有罪的時候, 只要我們有悔改的心, 認耶穌基督為我們個人的救主, 雖然罪還沒洗清, 神就愛我們, 帶領我們, 垂聽我們的禱告. 這時, 很重要的就是, 虛心傾聽神藉著聖經, 要告訴我們所當行的路.

例如保羅, 蒙揀選後, 亞拿尼亞對他說,
(徒22:16) 現在你為甚麼耽延呢、起來、求告他的名受洗、洗去你的罪。
當然保羅是奉主耶穌基督的聖名受洗! 個人看過"耶穌"這部電影, 記得飾演主耶穌的演員是跪在約但河水中, 面向下浸入受洗. 這是合乎聖經, 也安全的受洗姿勢.

個人覺得在還沒有歸入真教會前, 我是主耶穌"另外的羊", 是走迷路的羊.

另外, 個人覺得不應該說, "沒有說靈言, 就沒有得救恩", 應該說, 正確的洗禮後, 一般都有洗腳禮 (為的是與主有分), 我們就已經蒙主耶穌寶血救贖, 也與主有分. 但是不可像猶大, 走錯路, 賣主, 那洗腳的分對他而言就失落了, 還要積極的祈求得到聖靈的內住, 因為有聖靈保惠師的扶持, 我們更有能力勝過罪惡, 也更能真明白聖經.
而且, 神應許所有受過洗的兒女, 一定會得到應許的聖靈.

我們教會判斷一個人是否得到救贖, 是根據他是否接受主耶穌寶血的洗禮. 而不是根據他是否說靈言.
受洗後, 得到救恩, 當然鼓勵求聖靈, 因為是得天國基業的憑據. 這是一種鼓勵不灰心的禱告, 鼓勵不離開教會, 鼓勵長久在神的愛中的方式, 沒有什麼不對! 反而是非常好的事啊! 總有一天, 神會賞賜聖靈給你! 怕的是, 有些人等不到那天就跌倒了!

關於個人的體驗, 絕對不是"再一次被聖靈充滿", 我在第一次說靈言以前從來沒有"得到聖靈說靈言"的體驗. 有就是有, 沒有就是沒有, 非常清楚.

請再仔細看看(林前14), 很明顯有兩種說方言, 一種是方言禱告, 一種是方言講道. 方言禱告(應翻譯為 靈言禱告)是應許的神的禮物(dorea), 方言講道(或說預言, 作先知講道)是特殊恩賜(charisma), 兩者不應該混淆.

[ 12 ] Jeff-huang ( 2003/5/19 下午 04:01:00 )

親愛的John Lee

很歡迎你到本網站來
不過本網站有幾點還希望本會同靈與Lee兄及諸網友能共同遵守
(1)網路禮儀,如在文章標題與內文中不宜有攻擊性,或污蔑,與未經證實既進行不實之指控文字出現
(2)盡量使用中文陳述,本網站是屬於華人網站
為顧及一部份為[不具]雙語閱讀能力者,另一部份是雖具備雙語的閱讀能力,但在閱讀上仍顯得缺乏流暢性,另外也因文化的差異對於精確掌握美語字義者並不很多,因此為了維護這些網友的權益,希望本會同靈與Lee兄及諸網友能盡量使用中文陳述,若未能使用中文陳述者,本會亦有英文網站,請轉移到英文網站討論

另外還有一則要說明的
Lee兄你在標題上已經違背了(1)[網路禮儀]的規則
並且是以中文文字Post寫
這是所有華人可以明白的
但是Lee兄你在[內文]中所使用的絕大部份是美語
這樣在標題的赤裸裸的指控
試問Lee兄,
若有一部份美語閱讀能力不足者,
只見標題上的不實指控與污衊之文字,
當他們點選進去看,卻看到一些不太熟悉的文字
但卻只看的懂你的標題[真耶穌教會不是基督教]
Lee兄你覺得,我們還有多少機會來對這些網友解釋你對本會不實指控與污衊呢?

再者還請Lee兄深思
Lee兄你覺得,[倪柝声弟兄早期對真耶穌教會的批判]這樣的詞句真的一點也不會引起不同教派網友的誤會嗎?
再請Lee兄你捫心自問,你覺得這樣是在[探討真理]還是在[引起紛爭]呢?
也許Lee兄認為小弟誤會你了,
那麼Lee兄你若是在探討真理的同時,你是否有顧及到[應避免引起紛爭]一事呢?
誠然
由Lee兄所定之標題[倪柝声弟兄早期對真耶穌教會的批判]這樣的詞句應可見其是否有顧及到[應避免引起紛爭]一事了.

另外小弟有一疑問
為何Lee兄標題是中文,但內文卻是使用美語回應
為什麼Lee兄標題與內文不是全部使用美語
這對於一個慣用美語的人而言是一個反常現象
而會有如此的[反常現象],其後的目的意欲為何
真是令人不禁深思

小弟如此直接的這樣說
也許令Lee兄心中甚是不快
但Lee兄你也許不知,因為你這樣的行逕
造成一些網友對於[聖經學堂]產生極大的誤會
更令一些不知情的網友對本會產生極大的誤會
試問Lee兄
身為基督徒的你,你基督徒的馨香在那裡呢?

[聖經學堂]被網友以[看不下去],[亂象]等不滿的辭句抱怨
試問Lee兄
你若是管理者你會如何處理呢?

小弟請Lee兄你轉移到本會的英文版上去討論
或是有本會同靈想與Lee兄討論者
也請轉移到本會的英文版上去討論
另外也請本會同靈不要再對Lee兄作任何的回應
(如果Lee兄仍舊使用英文陳述)

但若是Lee兄堅持要在本網中文網站與本會同靈討論
那麼請Lee兄使用中文陳述
我想這樣小小的要求,身為基督徒的Lee兄應該會配合遵守(小弟猜測的)


小弟若有用辭不敬之處還請Lee兄包含
願主祝福你

[ 13 ] ^^ ( 2003/5/20 上午 09:40:00 )

如果無法用中文網路書寫
必須用英文
是否可以移到真耶穌教會的英文網站去討論呢？
http://www.tjc.org
本網站是服務華文人口的
該網站則是服務英文人口的
歡迎您上去那邊討論